Foetry.Com
October 30, 2014, 07:41:05 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Foetry.Com v.2 Forum Archive Through May 2007
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Richard Tillinghast plagiarism in Hunger Mountain?  (Read 18297 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
yohejohn
Newbie
*
Posts: 26



« on: May 27, 2006, 06:55:00 PM »

Hi, I'm new to the site, got here via the interview in the latest Left Curve. And I'm not sure if plagiarism is something that can be brought up, but I got the latest Hunger Mountian, in which there is a poem by Richard Tillinghast that I'm pretty sure he plagiarized the signer Gillian Welch in. Here is an excerpt from the poem, "A Love Story":

She was a bit of a slapper
you could say if you wanted to be mean,
with her short black skirts in black taxis,
her cell phone and hunger for experience,
and a string of love affairs with unsuitable men.
London was a dance,
                 a party dress
that fell at her feet in a beautiful mess.


And here's the verse from Gillian Welch's song "Barroom Girls":

Well the night came undone
Like a party dress
And fell at her feet
In a beautiful mess


So, am I crazy? I'd love to be proved wrong. I tell my students at Jackson Community College that if they transfer to U of M and get cuaght plagiarizing that they could be expelled, and yet here, it seems, is a U of M professor doing just that.

I tried looking for an email address to ask Tillinghast himself, but couldn't find one. If anyone has it, or knows him, please pass it along.

John Yohe
yohejohn@yahoo.com
Logged

limb Mt. Fujii little snail
only slowly, slowly
-Issa
Bugzita
Administrator
*****
Posts: 703



« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2006, 11:02:36 PM »

Plagiarism?

I don't think so.

These are the lines in question:

Quote
a party dress
that fell at her feet in a beautiful mess.


Here's why: Those kinds of phrases are ones that could just roll off anyone's tongue--in other words, generic undergraduate writing.

If anything, Richard Tillinghast may be guilty of using trite and cliched language, at least for THIS poem (I don't know his other work).

Anyone else have an opinion?

Bug
Logged

ennifer Semple Siegel

One must always question wrongheaded conventional wisdom.
alan
Administrator
*****
Posts: 1314



WWW
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2006, 09:16:53 AM »

Quote from: "yohejohn"
Hi, I'm new to the site, got here via the interview in the latest Left Curve.


Hi John,

Tillinghast has an email link on his website:

Thanks for the heads-up about the interview.  It's with Steven Ford Brown.

Welcome to the site!

Alan
Logged

"You especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it -- don't cheat with it.” -- Ernest Hemingway
__________________________________
Alan Cordle
Alexandra Benjamin
Newbie
*
Posts: 822


« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2006, 12:36:43 PM »

Left Curve of Jack Hirsh. of SF fame? HUMMM. Steven Ford Brown & Alan? I am clicking in now:

>>>>GO STEVEN, just came back and a great article. Grads Alan as well.

yohejohn: In my personal opinion, I think you do have plagiarism on your hands. Does this student not get it? At least s/he could have picked better verse to run off with. I have a solid example of a San Francisco poet ripping off Dunbar's (sp?) famous Mask poem. I even showed this to an editor who, as it turned out, at least appropriated others works and especially ideas. So I showed SF poet's poem to a prof of editing & creative writing and s/he said it was clearly plagiarism. Your example is clear to me. The important question to ask yourself and perhaps your student: was this unconscious on their part? Sometimes text slips in that is someone else's you love but so long a go or part of your thinking, one is not aware it happens; it is the kismet we all share, energy thing. Once that part is answered to your satisfaction, I think you will have an answer.
Logged

... And their combined reward will be no greater and no lesser than what will be won by a piece of dried turd. It's a reward beyond thought."

Jack Kerouac, The Scripture Of The Golden Eternity
yohejohn
Newbie
*
Posts: 26



« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2006, 01:48:13 PM »

Well, I actually tried that email on his website (a former student told me about it too) but he has since retired and it no longer works. For the record, here's the letter I wrote:

Mr. Tillinghast:

I have a question about your poem "A Love Story" in the latest Hunger Mountain. While it's a good poem, the second stanza ends with:

London was a dance,
            a party dress
that fell at her feet in a beautiful mess.


Which, is almost exactly like the verse from a Gillian Welch song titled "Barroom Girls":

Well the night came undone
Like a party dress
And fell at her feet
In a beautiful mess


I teach compostition at Jackson Community College, and when talking about plagiarism tell them that if they transfer to U of M, if they get caught plagiarizing they could be expelled. So it bothers me to see a U of M prof potentially taking Gillian Welch's lines without giving her credit.

On the other hand, I'm a poet too, and know there is a tradition of using other writers lines as starting points. So I wanted to know what you thought about this. I mean, if Gillian Welch read your poem, how do you think she'd feel?

I would enjoy hearing back from you. Thank you for your time.

John Yohe




And also for the record, Richard Tillignhast is not a student, he was a prof in the MFA program at the University of Michigan. I hear he's retired to Ireland.

Also for the record, I wrote a snailmail letter to the editor of Hunger Mountain. I'll let you guys know if they say anything.

Also, to the person who said it was a trite line...maybe, but the Gillian Welch song is good. I think it's on "Hell Among the Yearlings" in case anyone is interested.

Another poet friend of mine did bring up the point that poets borrow lines all the time, that there are even formula poems consiting of lines from other poems, and this one poet whose name i'm blanking on, second generation New York poet married to Alice Notley, did it all the time. tho i remember him putting quotes around the lines he borrowed. I just think Gillian Welch would be pissed...maybe I shoudl write here too

Chau,


John Yohe, the plagiarism nazi (who is probably burning bridges before he even gets to them...)
Logged

limb Mt. Fujii little snail
only slowly, slowly
-Issa
Alexandra Benjamin
Newbie
*
Posts: 822


« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2006, 02:00:58 PM »

Thanks for sharing this with members yohe. Stick around and make yourself at home here in foetrydotcom land. I have enjoyed your posts!
Logged

... And their combined reward will be no greater and no lesser than what will be won by a piece of dried turd. It's a reward beyond thought."

Jack Kerouac, The Scripture Of The Golden Eternity
yohejohn
Newbie
*
Posts: 26



« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2006, 02:23:36 PM »

well, while I was in an obsessed mood (and I'm at work doing nothing...) I sent a letter to Gillian Welch's management, the only email I could find on her website. I asked them to forward it on to her. So, we'll see...

Also, maybe I should have started this under the Poets subject, but didn't know how.

Also also, sorry about my typing skills...

also also also, that Hunger Mountain IS good, despite this little incident...

'sta luego...
Logged

limb Mt. Fujii little snail
only slowly, slowly
-Issa
alan
Administrator
*****
Posts: 1314



WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2006, 03:26:43 PM »

Quote from: "yohejohn"


also also also, that Hunger Mountain IS good, despite this little incident...

'sta luego...


Thanks for the tips -- we'll see what responses you get.  Hunger Mountain is good, and I don't think they should have to check the originality of every poem they publish; we should be able to trust the authors.
Logged

"You especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it -- don't cheat with it.” -- Ernest Hemingway
__________________________________
Alan Cordle
Alexandra Benjamin
Newbie
*
Posts: 822


« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2006, 05:29:36 PM »

As moderator of Foets (Poets?) section of this site, we will wait and see. So far, I see no conflict of interest by my personal opin so keep a postin Yohe! May Be u should think of getting an avatar here, as well. U already have that snappy byline* (that makes a Spanker like me happy; just kidding but really:). Your insights have helped me as a poet and member of foetrydotcom so keep coming by: AGAIN!

Alexa

* U wrote:

>>
John Yohe, the plagiarism nazi (who is probably burning bridges before he even gets to them...)
<<
Logged

... And their combined reward will be no greater and no lesser than what will be won by a piece of dried turd. It's a reward beyond thought."

Jack Kerouac, The Scripture Of The Golden Eternity
alan
Administrator
*****
Posts: 1314



WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2006, 10:12:40 PM »

See also:
Plagiarism, Ownership, & Allusion
Logged

"You especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it -- don't cheat with it.” -- Ernest Hemingway
__________________________________
Alan Cordle
Matt
Administrator
*****
Posts: 1063



WWW
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2006, 11:34:14 AM »

Quote from: "alan"


Oops!  Thanks, Alan.  I thought I'd left a link, but I guess not.

-Matt
Logged

Funk not only moves, it can RE-move, dig?"
      --Sir Lollipop Man (Alias, the Long-Haired Sucker)
yohejohn
Newbie
*
Posts: 26



« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2006, 01:22:57 PM »

This thread may be winding down, but the Hunger Mountain editor did reply to my snail mail. I feel bad because I did chastize them as well as Tillinghast, and I realize now they couldn't possible have had any control over what he did. But here's the letter, for the record:

John Yohe:  We received your note about Richard Tillinghast’s poem, “A Love Story,” in the Spring issue of Hunger Mountain.  While you are correct that one line is almost verbatim to one line in the Welch song you refer to (“that fell at her feet in a beautiful mess.”) we, of course, can’t possibly know if a line in any given piece of creative work submitted to us might mimic or match a line in another piece of creative work; barring that we randomly recognize such a thing, of course.  I think it has to be a matter of trust, for the most part, that authors are not plagiarizing another’s work; we could not possibly check every piece we print for such transgressions.  And, I know that it also happens, occasionally, that a writer incorporates a line or words in their work that they unconsciously pick up or remember from something they may have earlier heard or read.  I’m not saying that’s the case here but it does and can happen.
 
In any case, I’m not sure what else to say but do thank you for pointing this out to us and please know that had we been aware of or thought that something like this might appear in a Hunger Mountain issue we certainly would not condone or publish it.
 
I hope you otherwise enjoyed the issue.
 
Sincerely,
 
Louise H. Crowley
Senior Editor
Logged

limb Mt. Fujii little snail
only slowly, slowly
-Issa
Alexandra Benjamin
Newbie
*
Posts: 822


« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2006, 01:47:41 PM »

Something just happened to my post. I will be back and see if something came up. Sorry.

The bottom line (did this thread just get rethreaded as I posted?): thanks Yohe for being so concerned for the craft and exhibiting such a professional response to verse you were concerned about. I look for this in my peers in poetry, editing, and some professors I have had the honor to study under.

Please, keep posting.
Logged

... And their combined reward will be no greater and no lesser than what will be won by a piece of dried turd. It's a reward beyond thought."

Jack Kerouac, The Scripture Of The Golden Eternity
alan
Administrator
*****
Posts: 1314



WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2006, 01:58:40 PM »

I think it's very courteous of Louise H. Crowley to respond to your concerns.  Where's Tillinghast?
Logged

"You especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it -- don't cheat with it.” -- Ernest Hemingway
__________________________________
Alan Cordle
Monday Love
Administrator
*****
Posts: 1130



« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2006, 11:38:12 AM »

Edgar Allan Yohe catches Henry Wadsworth Tillinghast in a blatant act of robbery!  

A poet stealing from a singer, no less.  

You'd think it'd be the other way around...
Logged

hisper and eye contact don't work here.
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!