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Author Topic: Breaking News about Jorie Graham  (Read 23166 times)
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alan
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« on: April 26, 2005, 11:01:10 AM »

and the man to whom I referred as Peter Graham (honest mistake) on Talk of the Nation . . .

buried in the corrections at the Boston Globe.  MobyLives has the background info, including Graham's letter to the Globe.

Stay tuned . . . there will be a correction to the correction soon.
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"You especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it -- don't cheat with it. -- Ernest Hemingway
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Alan Cordle
AnyAmyAm
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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2005, 01:28:56 PM »

Clarification: A March 31 Alex Beam column in Living/Arts reported that poet Jorie Graham awarded a Georgia University Press poetry award to Peter Sacks, now her husband. The editor of the Press's Contemporary Poetry Series, Bin Ramke, says that Graham pointed out a conflict of interest involving herself and Sacks, and that Ramke himself chose Sacks for the 1999 award. Ramke asked Graham to officially concur in his decision, and she did.

W0W.

Jorie Graham is trying very hard to avoid the appearance of not trying to avoid the appearance of impropriety -- when what's really in question is NOT the appearance of impropriety (or the appearance of not avoiding it), but rather impropriety itself.

Someone better tell her.
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Vermeer
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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2005, 01:49:43 PM »

...point which is why did Sacks submit to a contest that he knew his colleague/partner was judging? Is it the ONLY time that Sacks submitted to the series? When Ramke and Graham conferred why not simply disqualify the Sacks manuscript? Why the double talk? This simply goes back to the oroginal point, which is that Graham selcted (helped select) the Peter Sacks manuscript.
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adamhardin
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2005, 02:06:14 PM »

Let's talk about Jorie Philosophy, and what it means to be a Jorie Philosopher, and this has nothing to do with ethics or the contest in question.

What do you need to be a Jorie Philosopher? You need metaphor piled upon metaphor in a way that confuses the author him/herself. You need just a glancing knowledge of philosophy, just recognition of key terms, and the ability to make metaphors out of those terms and pile them on top of each other to generate the appearence of depth and genius. You need the haunting phrase that resembles Emily Dickinson, that usually stands alone out of the large messy pile, and in this way you keep the reader's attention. The trick is to switch back and forth between the large piles of bullshit, and the single conscious phrase that holds the reader.

Say nothing. Say Everything.

Now you too can be a Jorie Philosopher.
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arold Bloom's accountant does not know how Harold managed to effortlessly transition their discussion of annuities to Falstaff but he suspects a similar ploy was used to sexually harrass Naomi Wolf.
alan
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2005, 07:44:26 PM »

I have hidden away a few posts about the open records obtained by Ed.  They are now in the hands of someone who is going to make very good use of them.  So everyone be patient for a week or so and I promise to bring back those posts -- when EVERYTHING is out in the open.

Thanks for understanding,
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"You especially have to be hurt like hell before you can write seriously. But when you get the damned hurt, use it -- don't cheat with it. -- Ernest Hemingway
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Alan Cordle
missblue
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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2005, 09:29:37 AM »

I predict tears.  National tears.  Jorie fails to answer the charges with any sort of logical defense, so here come the tears.  Who could resist tears from those big pretty eyes?  And after the tears, a big foet group hug. foetry.com, you made Jorie cry, you bully!

I could be wrong, but it's fun to guess.
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Tourbillon
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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2005, 11:15:36 AM »

missblue,

Ouch...that's a little mean spirited.

I'm sure you want justice etc. etc., but you don't get off on reducing people to tears, do you? Lest we forget, the so-called Foets are people too and for all the flawed corruption that Ms. Graham is most likely responsible for she's also given a lot of good things to American poetry.

That is, some of my best friends are Foets, and I still love them.

Thanks,

Goody Two Shoes Tourbillon

Quote from: "missblue"
I predict tears.  National tears.  Jorie fails to answer the charges with any sort of logical defense, so here come the tears.  Who could resist tears from those big pretty eyes?  And after the tears, a big foet group hug. foetry.com, you made Jorie cry, you bully!

I could be wrong, but it's fun to guess.
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missblue
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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2005, 11:59:38 AM »

Nononono.  You get me all wrong.  

We don't want tears.  I don't even think I want justice.  But I guess we want an apology, right?  But when the tears finally do come publicly, I think you have to be ready to see them for what they are.  A refusal to apologize and a little of the old "I'm a victim" business.  

Foets are people too. I like that.   That should be a bumper sticker.  

I have a few Foet friends, as well.  God bless them, but I won't defend their actions or hold their hands when they cry.
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Vermeer
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2005, 11:59:51 AM »

...you love a Foet? Isn't that like loving Ken Lay (Enro) or Bernard Ebbers (Worldcom) or Dennis Kozlowski (Tyco). What they've done (it appears) can't be undone. And just as if you dig a new riverbed it changes the course of the river (American poetry).

I was just at the NEA webpage reading the narrative of a recipient of one of the Foet inside jobs (she got a first book published at the same school she attended and judged by the poet she studied with) and her narrative included a musing on how great it was to get an NEA grant to give her time to spend on her writing. That she had been thinking that day how she never had time to write because of a job, her family, her child, etc... And I thought to myself how nice because we all feel that way. To be gifted with that book in an unfair contest in which the cards are stacked against the other contestants and be set off on the path to a job in the MFA world, future grants, etc.

That can't be undone. Who would have won if the contest was fair? Maybe not that person. Then she would have had to compete just like everyone else. Hard to love somehow who thinks its ok to cheat. At least in my world. Oh yes indeed, I am eager to see some Foets cry. Cry me a river!
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Tourbillon
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2005, 12:28:40 PM »

MissBlue and Vermeer--

OK, burn the bastards!

Granted, Ms. Graham and some others should have come clean a long time ago...and they won't unless they're forced to. And only then will the heads roll.

But, lest we forget, a lame know-nothing MFA culture has probably done more to hurt the art of poetry than the fact that most writing contests are scams. Active artists don't belong in the Academy...it's against common sense. Which begs the question of how artists should pay the rent. I dunno, marry rich???

On the other hand, MFA teaching jobs are inextricably bound up with the fact of getting published. The contest is the fulcrum.

Sadly,

Tourbillon
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Ed Dupree
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2005, 05:39:14 PM »

Tourbillon---
      You do my old New Left heart good, coming right out & saying it: let's get OUT of academia! Give up bureaucratic power and the nice middle-class career as poetry expert. I like what Adorno says in _Minima Moralia_ about academics being in "the most shameful of all positions, that of competing supplicants." Of course, he himself taught college philosophy, and of course reasonable & realistic people will dismiss any fundamental argument against any existing institution, and the world will go creaking disastrously along.  But I wish that at the very least poets who take the academic paycheck would just cash it quietly, and not make love to that employment. What if they gave an AWP convention and nobody came?
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Could it be, we are not free? It might be worth looking into."
                    --Samuel Beckett, Molloy
Tourbillon
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2005, 06:23:05 PM »

Ed--

Academic poets with tenured positions should be forced to wear tweeds or green corduroy and assume an attitude of whipped and beaten submission. They are suck ups in a proud and noble tradition that is wrapped up tightly with the spirit of rebellion, social change and antisocial shenanigans.

Academics who aren't tenured (especially the itinerent) can still play it hot and cool by constantly stirring up drama wherever they land and moving on to the next post.

Poetry needs attitude. It needs to stick it to the man, not just rip off a bunch of ephebes via circle jerk workshops, or even worse, scam poetry contests.

Tourbillon
 

Quote from: "Ed Dupree"
Tourbillon---
      You do my old New Left heart good, coming right out & saying it: let's get OUT of academia! Give up bureaucratic power and the nice middle-class career as poetry expert. I like what Adorno says in _Minima Moralia_ about academics being in "the most shameful of all positions, that of competing supplicants." Of course, he himself taught college philosophy, and of course reasonable & realistic people will dismiss any fundamental argument against any existing institution, and the world will go creaking disastrously along.  But I wish that at the very least poets who take the academic paycheck would just cash it quietly, and not make love to that employment. What if they gave an AWP convention and nobody came?
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Anonymous
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2005, 08:11:36 PM »

Gee Tourbillon, I didn't realize there was that much fun to be had. Maybe I should have tried it. I guess I did enjoy some parts of being a TA in grad school. Encouraging the kids to drop out, giving them all A's, etc. On the whole though, there was just too much bullshit to put up with. --One poet whose bad attitude I always admired was Alan Dugan. I knew him slightly back in the 80's, and he told a good story about being invited to Rosalind Carter's poetry soiree at the White House. He wrote her back a snotty marxist note. ---Speaking of Washington, it's sad to see Ted Kooser, some of whose poems I love, accepting the laureateship. I'm trying not to hold it against him.

Best,
Ed
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adamhardin
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2005, 10:56:57 PM »

Green Eggs and Jorie


I do not like Jorie Graham

I do not like her, she is a ham

I do not like her small rack

I do not like her verbal flack

I do not like her on my back

I do not like her in the sack

I do not like Jorie Graham,

I do not like her, she is a ham
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arold Bloom's accountant does not know how Harold managed to effortlessly transition their discussion of annuities to Falstaff but he suspects a similar ploy was used to sexually harrass Naomi Wolf.
verde
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« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2005, 01:15:59 AM »

Dear Tourbillon,
Even not taking into account that poetry should "stick to" women, girls and boys as well, you are beginning to sound very On the Roadish. Being a hippy is a ball,  but some of us in universities have kids to support. Which isn't to say that I don't agree: activist poets won't flourish in academia. But the problem is much larger. Everyone is being turned into a commodity.  

 You don't like fixed poetry contests. I don't like poetry contests, fixed or not. Who are the judges? by what right? with what standards? For what?
Don't just get out of academia (unless it is your JOB as in supporting others and yourself) transcend the whole mess.
The questions, at least for me, are:
How do we poets find the space/place/community to write?
How do we get read?
Here's what I think: Fall in love ( specifically and generally). Just write. Give your poems to your lover(s), to your kids, to your friends, to whomever, ask them what they think of your poems. Forget contests and publishing. Its no fun not to know the reader anyway.
 

Quote from: "Tourbillon"
Ed--

Academic poets with tenured positions should be forced to wear tweeds or green corduroy and assume an attitude of whipped and beaten submission. They are suck ups in a proud and noble tradition that is wrapped up tightly with the spirit of rebellion, social change and antisocial shenanigans.

Academics who aren't tenured (especially the itinerent) can still play it hot and cool by constantly stirring up drama wherever they land and moving on to the next post.

Poetry needs attitude. It needs to stick it to the man, not just rip off a bunch of ephebes via circle jerk workshops, or even worse, scam poetry contests.

Quote from: "Ed Dupree"
Tourbillon---
      You do my old New Left heart good, coming right out & saying it: let's get OUT of academia! Give up bureaucratic power and the nice middle-class career as poetry expert. I like what Adorno says in _Minima Moralia_ about academics being in "the most shameful of all positions, that of competing supplicants." Of course, he himself taught college philosophy, and of course reasonable & realistic people will dismiss any fundamental argument against any existing institution, and the world will go creaking disastrously along.  But I wish that at the very least poets who take the academic paycheck would just cash it quietly, and not make love to that employment. What if they gave an AWP convention and nobody came?
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